Olin Moyles Ghost

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Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

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  18

  Which is More Important: Doctrinal Correctness or Unity?

  by Olin Moyles Ghost in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  lately i have done a lot of thinking about the inevitable discussions i will have with family and friends about my (and their) beliefs.

  i have begun running through some hypothetical conversations in my mind.

  today, i thought of a particular line of reasoning and would like to hear any comments/criticism from the board.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  All: Thanks for your comments. To those pointing out that love trumps doctrinal correctness and unity: I couldn't agree more.
  
  To those pointing out the fallacy of the whole idea of "doctrinal correctness": I also agree. The reason I considered this approach is because of the emphasis that Witnesses place on doctrinal correctness, or "truth." Sort of how Paul tried to be all things to people of all sorts.
  
  Anyway, thanks.
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  7

  Alternative Service Banned - Cite?

  by Olin Moyles Ghost in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  as most of us know, alternative civilian service (e.g., working in a hospital) as a substitute for compulsory military service was banned by the society until 1996. my understanding is that this ban was instituted in the 1940s.

  does anyone have a cite to a watchtower article or other publication that explains the basis for this position?

  in my research, i have found several of wt articles and yearbook experiences that mention that jws consciences won't allow them to perform anything that is a "substitute" for military service.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Blondie, et al., thanks for the replies.
  
  In particular, the 12/8/1974 Awake is a good example of the Society's pre-1996 reasoning.
  
  I still haven't been able to find a printed reference to when and where the Society *first* banned alternative service. In one of Ray Franz's books, he mentions that the Society adopted the policy in the 1940s, but does not give a cite to a Watchtower or book that recites the policy.
  
  Perhaps such a printed reference does not exist? Perhaps this was simply communicated to the "company servants" and passed on to the brothers at the local congregations?
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  18

  Which is More Important: Doctrinal Correctness or Unity?

  by Olin Moyles Ghost in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  lately i have done a lot of thinking about the inevitable discussions i will have with family and friends about my (and their) beliefs.

  i have begun running through some hypothetical conversations in my mind.

  today, i thought of a particular line of reasoning and would like to hear any comments/criticism from the board.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Lately I have done a lot of thinking about the inevitable discussions I will have with family and friends about my (and their) beliefs. I have begun running through some hypothetical conversations in my mind. Today, I thought of a particular line of reasoning and would like to hear any comments/criticism from the board.
  
  NOTE: I have observed that the "unity" of the organization (i.e., that every JW believes the same doctrines) is impressive to the friends. To many, it strengthens their faith in the organization. It is a "safe harbor" into which Witnesses retreat when they are faced with reasoning that they cannot refute (another common "safe harbor" is the misapplication of John 6:68). The ultimate goal of this hypothetical conversation is to help the (hypothetical!) Witness see that the Society's emphasis on "unity" as being of pivotal importance and as an identifying mark of true Christians runs counter to Scripture.
  
  In this hypothetical conversation, my question is what is more important to God: (1) believing and teaching the truth about him, or (2) unitedly believing and teaching the same things (i.e., "unity").
  
  An honest Witness would say that #2 is more important. If a Witness tried to say that #1 was more important, I would ask him or her what would have happened to a Witness in, say, 1990, who believed and taught that the Generation did not mean those who saw the events of 1914? The only answer to this question is that the Witness who believed and taught this would be disfellowshipped. Therefore, #2 is easily seen as more important to Witnesses. (for further proof, see Hayden Covington's testimony in the Walsh trial)
  
  So, once the Witness admits that #2 is more important, I ask him or her for the scriptural basis for this belief. The only scripture that I can think of that may supports this is 1 Cor. 1:10 (Paul exhorts the congregation to speak in agreement, not have divisions, and be "fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought").
  
  My counter to 1 Cor. 1:10 is that it needs to be read in harmony with the rest of the Scriptures, such as John 4:24 (worship God with spirit and *truth*), John 8:32 (*truth* will set you free), and Ephesians 6:14 (loins girded with *truth* - i.e., part of spiritual suit of armor). Thus, the Bible seems to make it pretty clear that truth is crucial. In fact, if you read the scriptures in context and as being in harmony with each other, it becomes clear that unity is only worthwhile as long as it is unity in *truthful* teaching.
  
  Realistically, if we get this far into the conversation, the Witness will almost certainly play the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" card. But my point is not necessarily to shoot down the FDS doctrine (we'll save that for later), but to see that the Bible *clearly* teaches that truth is *vital*. But as far as I can tell, it takes some convoluted reasoning to say that unity is as important or more important than truth.
  
  Thanks for reading,
  
  OMG
• 
  7

  Alternative Service Banned - Cite?

  by Olin Moyles Ghost in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  as most of us know, alternative civilian service (e.g., working in a hospital) as a substitute for compulsory military service was banned by the society until 1996. my understanding is that this ban was instituted in the 1940s.

  does anyone have a cite to a watchtower article or other publication that explains the basis for this position?

  in my research, i have found several of wt articles and yearbook experiences that mention that jws consciences won't allow them to perform anything that is a "substitute" for military service.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Olin Moyles Ghost

  As most of us know, alternative civilian service (e.g., working in a hospital) as a substitute for compulsory military service was banned by the Society until 1996. My understanding is that this ban was instituted in the 1940s.
  
  Does anyone have a cite to a Watchtower article or other publication that explains the basis for this position? In my research, I have found several of WT articles and Yearbook experiences that mention that JWs consciences won't allow them to perform anything that is a "substitute" for military service. If anyone knows which article the position was first printed, I would appreciate it.
  
  Gracias,
  OMG
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  33

  Hitchens with Maher - JWs highest turnover rate.

  by Mincan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4o38bxnwc8.

  apologies if this has been posted already..

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Not sure if anyone has pointed this out on the other threads dealing with the Religious Affiliation Survey, but here's one thing I noticed. While the JWs were stuck at a lousy 37% retention rate, the Mormons are at 70%.
  
  Last week, I mentioned the 37% figure to a Witness friend. He wasn't surprised...actually thought it would be lower. When I asked why, he said "because it's hard." I agreed with him, but I wish I had known the Mormon stats. Why? Well, being a Mormon is hard! In some ways, harder than being a Witness. For example, Mormon beliefs are even more bizarre than Witness beliefs (Talk about having your own Bible? Well, the Mormons have a sequel!) Also, Mormon morality rules are harder. They have the same premarital sex and smoking bans as Witnesses. And at least we Witnesses can drink alcohol and caffeine.
  
  So, why do the Mormons have almost double the retention rate of Witnesses, even though they have (1) weirder beliefs, and (2) stricter morals?
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  11

  Gods chosen people penis ID system...always works too.

  by oompa in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i guess the reason the jews in bible times wore a skirt was to show off their winky whenever it was required.

  "are you a true man of god...really, well then, whip it out!

  " kinda hard to argue the point if you were completely packin.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Oompa,
  
  I have long considered circumcision to be one of the strangest things in the Bible. I imagine Jehovah, J.C., and the angels up there in heaven trying to dream up the craziest "tests of faith" for their servants.
  
  Jehovah: OK, I've got this guy Abram. He says he wants to be my servant. What should I make him do to prove he's for real?
  
  Angel 1: Sacrifice his firstborn child!
  
  Jehovah: Well, he doesn't have any kids yet, but I'll keep that one in the back of my mind for later.
  
  Angel 2: Sell his house and live in tents!
  
  Jehovah: Yeah, that's ok...might do that...c'mon, let's get some out-of-the-box thinking here!
  
  Angel 3: OK, how about this: Have him take a sharp rock and cut off part of his penis. Tell him that he and all his male offspring must do this for the rest of their generations, and that if he refuses, he is dead in your (God's) eyes.
  
  Jehovah: Brilliant! (to the other angels): keep an eye on this one; he's going places.
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  15

  Is anyone else hoping for the Society to "crack down" on the friends?

  by Olin Moyles Ghost in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there have been a few threads speculating about possible future actions by the society, triggered in part by the "valueless things" article and losch's alleged new light re: bablylon the great.

  personally, i hope they do something crazy and make up some new unscriptural doctrines and/or rules.

  this may help some of my family members to "see the light," so to speak.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Casper,
  
  Thanks for the compliment re: my avatar...I wasn't trying to rip you off, I promise!
  
  yourmomma,
  
  Your post reminded me of a conversation I had with a friend a few months ago. He mentioned that he had noticed the WT study articles becoming more "straightforward" lately. I had not noticed any particular trend at that time...perhaps I just wasn't paying sufficient attention. Anyway, my friend thought it was good that the Society was being more straightforward, and he anticipated that the JW-only WTs would continue that trend. So far, it appears that he may be correct.
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  47

  What do you remember about the Conventions?

  by ScoobySnax in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i think back, i remember being excited in the 80's.

  i remember the 5p food token strips at twickenham, london.

  you could get hot fresh doughnuts and burgers.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  For the last couple of years before they stopped serving food at the District Conventions, I worked in "expediting." This job consisted of transporting the food from storage rooms to the food service tables. As a teenager, this was a much better job than working in food service (i.e., serving food during the lunch break) because the work had to be done DURING the session. Thus, you got to miss part of the program and didn't have to work during the breaks. A win-win situation!
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  15

  Is anyone else hoping for the Society to "crack down" on the friends?

  by Olin Moyles Ghost in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there have been a few threads speculating about possible future actions by the society, triggered in part by the "valueless things" article and losch's alleged new light re: bablylon the great.

  personally, i hope they do something crazy and make up some new unscriptural doctrines and/or rules.

  this may help some of my family members to "see the light," so to speak.

  1. 
  2. 
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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Mr. Flipper,
  
  Good observation. It’s interesting how individual Witnesses deal with adversity from within the organization. As you know, we're taught to view such situations as tests of our loyalty.
  
  In my personal experience, there have been two instances over the past decade that were clear, open-and-shut cases of arbitrary, unchristian power plays by men in power in the organization. Either one of these instances should have been enough to open my eyes. Unfortunately, neither did. Looking back, though, each of these events probably did change my perspective to some extent.
  
  I guess, for some of us, it takes several "knocks on the head" before we get the point. Perhaps future acts by the Society will have such an effect on some of the ones I love.
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  15

  Is anyone else hoping for the Society to "crack down" on the friends?

  by Olin Moyles Ghost in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there have been a few threads speculating about possible future actions by the society, triggered in part by the "valueless things" article and losch's alleged new light re: bablylon the great.

  personally, i hope they do something crazy and make up some new unscriptural doctrines and/or rules.

  this may help some of my family members to "see the light," so to speak.

  1. 
  2. 
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• 

  Olin Moyles Ghost

  There have been a few threads speculating about possible future actions by the Society, triggered in part by the "Valueless Things" article and Losch's alleged new light re: Bablylon the Great.
  
  Personally, I hope they do something crazy and make up some new unscriptural doctrines and/or rules. This may help some of my family members to "see the light," so to speak.
  
  Of course, it would be unfortunate for those staying in, but at the end of the day, that's their choice.
  
  Anyone else looking for a "crackdown" as a vehicle for escaping the org.?